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	<title>Comments on: Enough With the Anti-Institutional Sloganeering: A Divergent Friend Speaks</title>
	<link>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/</link>
	<description>Independent Quaker Journalism &#038; Commentary. By Chuck Fager.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:40:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: John Stephens</title>
		<link>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-833</link>
		<author>John Stephens</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 19:49:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-833</guid>
		<description>Instructive post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Instructive post.</p>
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		<title>By: A Young Quaker</title>
		<link>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-511</link>
		<author>A Young Quaker</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Feb 2010 03:30:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-511</guid>
		<description>I've been reading a lot about the so-called Convergent Friends, and more and more it just seems like aimless bitterness. It's like reading your basic Evangelical Christian pop-culture, pop-psychology book... all the buzz words are there, and ironically, the same lack of substance is there too...
    It sounds more like rhetoical speach-writing than solutions to their gripes. Some, who shall remain nameless, use the genuine concerns of some of the "convergent friends" as a soapbox for their own bitterness against FGC. A long time ago, a king created Protestantism so he could get a divorce. It seems that for some, Convergent Friends is not a serious movement but rather more akin to a blogging meta-tag for rants against FGC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve been reading a lot about the so-called Convergent Friends, and more and more it just seems like aimless bitterness. It&#8217;s like reading your basic Evangelical Christian pop-culture, pop-psychology book&#8230; all the buzz words are there, and ironically, the same lack of substance is there too&#8230;<br />
    It sounds more like rhetoical speach-writing than solutions to their gripes. Some, who shall remain nameless, use the genuine concerns of some of the &#8220;convergent friends&#8221; as a soapbox for their own bitterness against FGC. A long time ago, a king created Protestantism so he could get a divorce. It seems that for some, Convergent Friends is not a serious movement but rather more akin to a blogging meta-tag for rants against FGC.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh A. Humphries</title>
		<link>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-442</link>
		<author>Josh A. Humphries</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-442</guid>
		<description>Chuck,
as you know, I went into the lion's den five years ago for holding an unpopular view (which was characterized as something that it was not). Because of the position that I took, I've faced all sorts of grief. I've had plenty of people say that it's inappropriate for me to be able to do all sorts of things (including lead a workshop at yearly meeting).

If young people stand up for views that differ from their older community members, there are efforts to punish them so that they might become "respectful community members" all the while disrespecting them at every opportunity. I can name all sorts of cruelty that I've faced for basically taking ONE position FIVE years ago at yearly meeting. I can name people who believe that my lack of repentance at that position indicates that I am not "mature" enough to provide valid input.

One fundamental problem is that with a difference of age comes an assessment of capability. If a person who is half the age (or even younger) of someone taking a differing position, their age is directly plugged into a formula of "weight" that tries to function not by Spirit, but by might and by power. And THAT is not how Friends are supposed to work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chuck,<br />
as you know, I went into the lion&#8217;s den five years ago for holding an unpopular view (which was characterized as something that it was not). Because of the position that I took, I&#8217;ve faced all sorts of grief. I&#8217;ve had plenty of people say that it&#8217;s inappropriate for me to be able to do all sorts of things (including lead a workshop at yearly meeting).</p>
<p>If young people stand up for views that differ from their older community members, there are efforts to punish them so that they might become &#8220;respectful community members&#8221; all the while disrespecting them at every opportunity. I can name all sorts of cruelty that I&#8217;ve faced for basically taking ONE position FIVE years ago at yearly meeting. I can name people who believe that my lack of repentance at that position indicates that I am not &#8220;mature&#8221; enough to provide valid input.</p>
<p>One fundamental problem is that with a difference of age comes an assessment of capability. If a person who is half the age (or even younger) of someone taking a differing position, their age is directly plugged into a formula of &#8220;weight&#8221; that tries to function not by Spirit, but by might and by power. And THAT is not how Friends are supposed to work!</p>
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		<title>By: Martin Kelley</title>
		<link>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-416</link>
		<author>Martin Kelley</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 08:46:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.afriendlyletter.com/index.php/hard-core-quaker/enough-with-the-anti-institutional-sloganeering-a-divergent-friend-speaks/#comment-416</guid>
		<description>Hey Chuck: have to think I'm one of those you're talking about. I worked inside the system for many years and I continue to work on the edges of the system but I do make general statements about Quaker institutionalism.

I don't name names because I know from experience that no one's going to listen to whatever I say. And because some needed work does actually get done sometimes, even in the most disfunctional organization. I have a suitcase of stories of being ostracized when I asked too many "elephant in the middle of the room" questions. Yes, making a fuss gives me "I told you so" bragging rights when it's all crashed down and been swept under the carpet, but by that time some slick development manager will have mixed together a new batch of kool-aid and everyone will have forgotten the money and effort wasted on the last great idea.

My take is that a lot of the big staff-heavy organizations aren't sustainable. They're also not needed in the same way they were in the past. As money has tightened, they're cranked up the hype and turned ever more attention to a shrinking donor class. Yes, we could name acronyms and tell stories but that would just be two jaded insiders whining and trading snarky barbs.

All this is why I've taken a step sideways. The work of QuakerQuaker is different because:

1) It's not staffed. No development manager, no fundraising budget.

2) It's easily replicable and not based on any sort of monopoly position. If anyone disagrees with it, they can pay $15 to get their own website. This means it can be opinionated, which I think is the big reason for whatever success it has.

3) It makes no claims to being "the" site for anything. Most of it's work is sending people to other sites. We link to lots of organizations that don't link back. That's okay, no skin off our teeth.

4) If it disappeared or transmogrified into some other sort of entity no one would care. No livlihoods at stake, no property to sell, no assets to fight over.

I don't just complain. I work with larger Quaker clients in my web consulting business. I regularly talk behind the scenes with staffers at various Quaker acroynms (mostly the younger, lower-level employees). I don't think the decision-makers fully realize that the economic meltdown only speeded up some major changes in how small nonprofits relate to their mission and supporters. Tightend budgets are the new normal and are only going to get tighter. If we can get through the crunches, I think we'll find that the internet and a kind of distributed volunteer network can spread the good news of Quakerism farther, faster and more full-bodily than the old model. We'll see. &gt;&gt;

Chuckfager replies: &lt;em&gt;Well, yes, Martin I'll cop that you were on the list I had in mind. But maybe not in the way you suspect: your work on quakerquaker (plus the consulting, about which I know less) is going in the direction of the organizational innovators I spoke about wanting to see emerge.  Whether it succeeds in institutional terms or not, it's an important experimental step forward. So props for that.

So yes, we both know you've done your share of complaining about existing organizations. I have a feeling that your "List B" of groups that could/should be laid down would be a lengthy one. Nothing wrong with that. And the time may come when it's appropriate to name some names.

After all, Friends Journal already named itself as a candidate for dissolution. I understand they were trying to have a board meeting this weekend, in the midst of Snowmageddon, to make some decisions about that.  I hope they'll have the gumption to: 1) bite the necessary bullets; and 2) speak candidly to "outsiders" about what's been done, beyond just issuing more fundraising yada yada.

And in addition, Direct Aid to Iraq, a Quake-ish young nonprofit, shut down entirely late last year, too bad. 

More names to come, I expect.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Chuck: have to think I&#8217;m one of those you&#8217;re talking about. I worked inside the system for many years and I continue to work on the edges of the system but I do make general statements about Quaker institutionalism.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t name names because I know from experience that no one&#8217;s going to listen to whatever I say. And because some needed work does actually get done sometimes, even in the most disfunctional organization. I have a suitcase of stories of being ostracized when I asked too many &#8220;elephant in the middle of the room&#8221; questions. Yes, making a fuss gives me &#8220;I told you so&#8221; bragging rights when it&#8217;s all crashed down and been swept under the carpet, but by that time some slick development manager will have mixed together a new batch of kool-aid and everyone will have forgotten the money and effort wasted on the last great idea.</p>
<p>My take is that a lot of the big staff-heavy organizations aren&#8217;t sustainable. They&#8217;re also not needed in the same way they were in the past. As money has tightened, they&#8217;re cranked up the hype and turned ever more attention to a shrinking donor class. Yes, we could name acronyms and tell stories but that would just be two jaded insiders whining and trading snarky barbs.</p>
<p>All this is why I&#8217;ve taken a step sideways. The work of QuakerQuaker is different because:</p>
<p>1) It&#8217;s not staffed. No development manager, no fundraising budget.</p>
<p>2) It&#8217;s easily replicable and not based on any sort of monopoly position. If anyone disagrees with it, they can pay $15 to get their own website. This means it can be opinionated, which I think is the big reason for whatever success it has.</p>
<p>3) It makes no claims to being &#8220;the&#8221; site for anything. Most of it&#8217;s work is sending people to other sites. We link to lots of organizations that don&#8217;t link back. That&#8217;s okay, no skin off our teeth.</p>
<p>4) If it disappeared or transmogrified into some other sort of entity no one would care. No livlihoods at stake, no property to sell, no assets to fight over.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t just complain. I work with larger Quaker clients in my web consulting business. I regularly talk behind the scenes with staffers at various Quaker acroynms (mostly the younger, lower-level employees). I don&#8217;t think the decision-makers fully realize that the economic meltdown only speeded up some major changes in how small nonprofits relate to their mission and supporters. Tightend budgets are the new normal and are only going to get tighter. If we can get through the crunches, I think we&#8217;ll find that the internet and a kind of distributed volunteer network can spread the good news of Quakerism farther, faster and more full-bodily than the old model. We&#8217;ll see. >></p>
<p>Chuckfager replies: <em>Well, yes, Martin I&#8217;ll cop that you were on the list I had in mind. But maybe not in the way you suspect: your work on quakerquaker (plus the consulting, about which I know less) is going in the direction of the organizational innovators I spoke about wanting to see emerge.  Whether it succeeds in institutional terms or not, it&#8217;s an important experimental step forward. So props for that.</p>
<p>So yes, we both know you&#8217;ve done your share of complaining about existing organizations. I have a feeling that your &#8220;List B&#8221; of groups that could/should be laid down would be a lengthy one. Nothing wrong with that. And the time may come when it&#8217;s appropriate to name some names.</p>
<p>After all, Friends Journal already named itself as a candidate for dissolution. I understand they were trying to have a board meeting this weekend, in the midst of Snowmageddon, to make some decisions about that.  I hope they&#8217;ll have the gumption to: 1) bite the necessary bullets; and 2) speak candidly to &#8220;outsiders&#8221; about what&#8217;s been done, beyond just issuing more fundraising yada yada.</p>
<p>And in addition, Direct Aid to Iraq, a Quake-ish young nonprofit, shut down entirely late last year, too bad. </p>
<p>More names to come, I expect.</em></p>
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